[FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic"
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@guy038 said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
Of course, it’s not a true N++ solution but it’s a solution !
I have to support @guy038 on this.
No one has a duty to help anyone in this forum.
Once someone chooses to help someone with something that began as a reasonable question grounded in Notepad++, I don’t see a rationale for complaining because they want to continue to be helpful, even if that strays from the pure scope of Notepad++. I think we should respect that contributor’s willingness to provide assistance.
If a moderator (or anyone, I guess) really thinks that someone is actively encouraging off-topic use of this forum by answering too many follow-up questions that should be addressed elsewhere, perhaps a private message to that effect would be in order.
It’s not my forum, it’s not up to me, but for what it’s worth, I don’t like it when I get the sense that we’re prioritizing pettiness about what is and isn’t suitable use of the forum over being helpful to folks who come here looking for help. I understand that there’s a limit. I just think being a friendly and helpful place is more important that being a strictly “on-topic” place.
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@guy038 ,
Wow, I didn’t know you could get annoyed. ;-) Sorry it was us who finally did it.
Then, what is the purpose(s) of the
Runmenu?It’s to run external programs or processes. And if PersonX wanted to ask “how to I run
myCoolCommandLine.exe -input CURRENT_FILENAMEfrom inside Notepad++?”, I would be happy to answer "the Run menu allows you to run a command, so you could do Run > Run… and inputcmd /c myCoolCommandLine.exe -input "$(FULL_CURRENT_FILE)"", and then give some more hints as to how to save those, add a keyboard shortcut, encourage the use of quotes around the filename, etc.But if personX came back and said, “how do I do XYZ in myCoolCommandLine.exe”, I would say, “sorry, I don’t know that tool; and since Notepad++, not myCoolCommandLine, is the focus of the forum, it’s off-topic to delve into how to use that external tool”.
So, to reiterate, I do not think the Run menu is off topic for this forum. What I do think is that we need to focus our answers on the Notepad++ side of things, rather than getting into the details of the external programs, whether they are myCoolCommandLine.exe or python.exe or cmd.exe or powershell.exe.
it’s the same reason that PythonScript solutions are reasonable, when they are focused on the
notepadandeditorobjects, but if someone just shoehorns using the PythonScript plugin to run a python program that has no interaction with Notepad++ itself, then it’s strayed off-topic for the forum.we could ask @donho to totally suppress this menu
None of us want that.
I can tell that you are upset. But to bring it back to the discussion that prompted this tangent, the question was originally asked in the context of Notepad++, and answered with both a PythonScript solution (which does make significant use of the editor and notepad objects, thus interfacing with Notpead++) and a plugin solution; with two in-Notepad++ answers, both of which could have solved the problem, there wasn’t a need for details on a cmd.exe batch solution. Could that batch be run from inside Notepad++, through the Run menu or NppExec? Of course, and I do such things all the time – but that doesn’t mean that getting into the guts of that batch file are really on-topic for the forum.
but simply as a possible solution in some rare cases.
This, I 100% agree with. If there hadn’t been a PythonScript and plugin answer suggested already, I would have been bothered less by the batch file. If the Run-menu portion of the suggestion (remember, the original post had no mention of the Run menu, and was instead just talking about a batch file), it would have bothered me less, but I still would have recommended just focusing on the mechanics of how to use it from the Run menu, rather than diving into the gory details of the batch itself. I don’t mind the rare excursions, as long as they don’t take the focus of this forum, or of any given Topic, too far away from Notepad++.
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@Coises said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
If a moderator (or anyone, I guess) really thinks that someone is actively encouraging off-topic use of this forum by answering too many follow-up questions that should be addressed elsewhere, perhaps a private message to that effect would be in order.
I tend to agree – both because it’s more polite, and because it helps prevent the “meta discussion” from taking over. But, in this case, once it had already been made public, the discussion needed to stay public – which is why I moved it from the original topic to this FORK, so that it wouldn’t clutter solving the original person’s problem. But, in the future, I will try to keep my responses to straying off topic private, unless there is a good reason
with something that began as a reasonable question grounded in Notepad++
For any solution that can be done inside Notepad++, or reasonably started in the context of hoping it could be done inside Notepad++, it could easily stray into alternate solutions that have no need for Notepad++. If there’s no way to do it in Notepad++, I have no problem with a brief mention of the other possibilities, as long as further discussion is moved away from the forum when it strays from close-to-Notepad++ to the nitty-gritty details of the non-Notepad++ discussion. But if there’s already been one or more Notepad++ or close-to-Notepad++ suggestions/solutions provided, I don’t see a need for straying into the further-afield solutions, or at least holding off on them until it’s been shown that the close-to-Notepad++ solutions aren’t sufficient.
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@guy038 said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
As @donho created this forum, it seems to me that Don is the only person which has authority to tell us what we should speak of or not in our forum !
But @donho also entrusted you and me with Admin powers, and a few others with Moderator powers, to be able to handle the day-to-day aspects of the Forum. And in the absence of Don weighing in on every decision, I do my best with what I’ve been given, as do you.
And when another moderator (such as you) has already weighed in on a discussion – maybe by continuing the slightly off-topic parts of a discussion – I generally try to hold back and let that original “decision” stand, because it’s rarely a “completely off topic” discussion.
If @donho does come in and give a clearer understanding on what he believes to be on topic and off topic, I will adjust my decision-making thresholds based on his input. Until then, I will do my best to muddle through, and to straddle the line between being too authoritarian and having a hands-off approach where the Notepad++ Community becomes just another Stack Exchange for answering every possible computer question just because part of the solution might be typed in Notepad++.
And in this case, while I supported Alan’s assertion that it’s off topic, I do try to temper my decisions with things like “tend to” and “suggeset” and “encourage”, rather than “STOP NOW”, because I don’t want to become super-authoritarian (even though I admit I have a tendency toward that end of the spectrum).
To sum up: I just want to help people with using Notepad++ to solve their text editing needs, and I want Notepad++ to stay the focus of every question, even though some answers may stray for a time.
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@PeterJones said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
But, in the future, I will try to keep my responses to straying off topic private, unless there is a good reason
I’d rather that the default be that conversations, even if a bit off topic, be in the public forum unless there is a good reason to send a private or direct message.
@guy038 said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
As @donho created this forum, it seems to me that Don is the only person which has authority to tell us what we should speak of or not in our forum !
The general theme of Notepad++ and its community seems to lean towards promoting counter-authority and promoting free speech. I assume that includes allowing for people posting something to the forum that is not 100% in alignment with Notepad++.
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@PeterJones
I agree in principle with @guy038 and @Coises that people legitimately offering help should not be discouraged from doing so.There seem to be some forum categories that are not strictly NPP-related (AFAICT), like humor, and blogs.
Maybe a new category could be created for general help or solutions. Not sure how that would affect moderating duties, but any “normal” NPP user who doesn’t want to see posts that are not strictly NPP-related could easily ignore such a category.
Seeing that this thread is located in General Discussion, I wonder what sort of “general” discussions are inappropriate (other than a few obvious ones).
I will sprint over to the FAQs to see if anything I’ve said here is answered there, so don’t pounce on me just yet! :-)
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@Jim-Dailey said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
Seeing that this thread is located in General Discussion, I wonder what sort of “general” discussions are inappropriate (other than a few obvious ones).
My guess is that in the Founding Days (before I had joined), that the General Discussion was meant as a catch-all for things that weren’t specifically Notepad++ questions. I have steered it to be more “General Discussion about Notepad++” in contrast to “help wanted with Notepad++”, but that might just be my interpretation and preference, and thus I steered it that way. I cannot be certain of the original purpose. You had an earlier start here than I did, so you might have a better perspective than me, in that case.
I will sprint over to the FAQs to see if anything I’ve said here is answered there, so don’t pounce on me just yet! :-)
I wrote those FAQs, so they are obviously biased toward my preferences for the Forum.
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@mkupper said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
The general theme of Notepad++ and its community seems to lean towards promoting counter-authority and promoting free speech
Indeed. I may have strayed too authoritarian, despite trying to stay a “moderate moderator”.
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@PeterJones said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
You had an earlier start here than I did, so you might have a better perspective than me, in that case.
I couldn’t really say. For me it seems like admonishing people for being “off-topic” occurs more frequently as time goes by, but that may or may not be accurate.
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@PeterJones said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
the question was originally asked in the context of Notepad++, and answered with both a PythonScript solution (…) and a plugin solution; with two in-Notepad++ answers, both of which could have solved the problem, there wasn’t a need for [another] solution
With all due respect to those who offered suggestions before I did, “answer[ed|s]” and “solved the problem” might not be the most accurate way to describe those responses:
The plugin suggestion directed the OP to a long and detailed documentation page without giving any suggestions on which portions/features might be useful for accomplishing the task at hand. Even if you go ahead and install that plugin and explore its interface for yourself, it’s not intuitive how one would actually use it to complete the task that the OP asked about; I tried a few different things earlier today, and still have yet to figure out how do what the OP wants to do…
Similarly, the other suggestion linked the OP to various search results within the forum, and many of those posts recursively suggested doing the same searches. While there may well be a ready-made solution somewhere within those search results, the post that contains the solution is not identifiable at a glance…
Since neither of the responses seemed to contain a ready-made solution, I posted a reply with explicit instructions on how one could accomplish the task at hand in a few simple steps. Although the main piece of the solution did not strictly necessitate the use of NP++, this was (somewhat ironically) the same sort of tool/technique that @Alan-Kilborn recommended in this response, which was accepted with open arms (and rightfully so).
Given that batch scripts aren’t really a “third party” tool (i.e. you don’t need to install any new software to either create or use them), and that NP++ is an excellent tool for creating and running them, I think that any recommendations that involve using them to do some sort of programmatic file creation and/or modification that NP++ can’t (easily) do at the moment fall within the principles behind the use of this forum.
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@PeterJones said:
Wow, I didn’t know you (@guy038) could get annoyed. ;-) Sorry it was us who finally did it.
Specifically, it was ME.
That’s fine, I can take the heat. :-)
@PeterJones said:
…to bring it back to the discussion that prompted this tangent, the question was originally asked in the context of Notepad++, and answered with both a PythonScript solution (which does make significant use of the editor and notepad objects, thus interfacing with Notepad++) and a plugin solution; with two in-Notepad++ answers, both of which could have solved the problem, there wasn’t a need for details on a cmd.exe batch solution.
EXACTLY. To me, someone just wanted to show off their powershell skills, and thus couldn’t resist the lure of posting such a solution, even after the problem was reasonably solved. And if that was indeed the underlying goal, go off and find a powershell discussion/support site to do that.
And, full disclosure, if it was a powershell one-liner, embedded in a Run menu entry, I wouldn’t have said a thing. I’d consider that “slick” and relatively on-topic. But it wasn’t that, and it involved creating a batch file (with implication that the original poster even knows what that is), and before we know it, we’re down in there explaining the bowels of batch and how and
&character in a filename might muck things up… It all just seems overkill for a problem with Notepad++ related solutions already given.
@guy038 said:
you could also say that I should move to a regex forum as my numerous regex answers certainly “pollute” this forum which should stay dedicated on main N++ features
Well, maybe I’m contradicting myself here, but I don’t mind this. I think the regex topics that are presented here make me better with my future Notepad++ search and replacement tasks, so it’s “on topic” for me, so I’m glad to see anything @guy038 (or others) want to present. In other words, I’d happily read @guy038 postings all day long.
One slight annoyance, however, is when a solved regex problem is re-solved by a later posting. Maybe that later posting makes the regex one or two characters shorter. This is annoying because who cares about one or two characters when the problem has already been adequately solved? Now, sure, chopping off a LOT of characters IS instructive, because it probably means that the poster that previously solved the problem was unaware of certain regex constructs. And of course a wholly different take on a solution that illustrates a new concept is very welcome as well.
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In reading this thread I’m reminded of a previous thread (#16735, Dec 2018 for those interested) where the same question arose. What is and isn’t permissible to post.
If I may, I’d like to repeat a sentence in my post at the time:
“In terms of the original question, what is permissible and what isn’t, especially with regards to regular expressions? I too was unsure on when it is, and when it isn’t. As of now I’m still not sure. From my point of view I consider ANY question here to be permissible if it’s using NPP as the environment.”I would (given my length of time on this forum) like to temper that statement somewhat. In terms of supplying a solution, if it goes off to another application (say PowerShell), perhaps only guidance should be provided, not trying to provide the complete solution.
I also wrote:
“At the end of the day, my philosophy is that we can either elect to help out the OP, or if we feel we are being “used as a free bus service” (hop on and off at will) we can step aside and let someone else. It’s all about respect (2 way street) and not flaming those who (sometimes unbeknown to themselves) overstep those invisible lines.”I had also mentioned that there were no formal guidelines with participating in this forum and that perhaps it was because it is a “living” entity. It is what the members deem it to be. And hopefully most do realise this is a forum primarily for the support of NPP users.
My 2c worth
Terry -
@mathlete2 ,
Considering all the hullabaloo over this, it would have been just as productive, considering the lack of discussion by the OP, nor even a followup question from him in his own thread, to have just answered to him “Yes” or “No”, to his question, which was, can NPP do this.He didn’t ask for the solution, outright, though he may have made it there eventually. Perhaps, we all should stop being so helpful at first, and wait until a poster shows they’re actually interested in true engagement with the community to make clear their intents. I know when I came here with my questions about UDL’s it was after I had at the least, read the manual, and then tried to figure out what I read. Only @PeterJones seemed to have been the initial helpful person that tried to get through my thick head that I was misreading or not doing something right. But it was a back and forth, not a “do this for me”.
Only later did I start getting more suggestions and help from many of you guys. Maybe we need to take that stand back approach instead of trying to spoon feed people that come here for quick and easy answers instead of doing the initial footwork that I’m sure almost all of you have had to do, to get to the level of understanding you have.
If we assume they are stupid, instead of giving them gentle nudges to where they need to go, to learn how to do it themselves, we’ll never be able to teach them to fish so they can feed themselves for life. If the question isn’t an easily answered question, directing them elsewhere not knowing their capabilities will only confuse them, no matter who of us refers them a solution.
Just my $.02 worth, though I suspect it’s not even worth that much. :-)
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@Alan-Kilborn said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
To me, someone just wanted to show off their powershell skills, and thus couldn’t resist the lure of posting such a solution, even after the problem was reasonably solved.
Once again, “reasonably solved” is a stretch - see my previous comment, which explains why the previous responses weren’t particularly helpful for solving the problem.
Also, making assumptions on someone’s motivation for providing a batch and/or powershell-based solution (or any other type of solution for that matter) isn’t fair, especially since you yourself have shown a willingness to post batch-based solutions on this forum. If you must know, the code I provided in my post was based on scripts that I had put together for my own purposes - it took little time to copy the relevant pieces over, adapt it to the OP’s situation, and run a few quick tests to make sure it worked as expected. Given that neither of the other suggestions seemed to have a ready-made solution, it seemed sensible to share the solution that I had managed to put together.
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@Lycan-Thrope said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
He didn’t ask for the solution, outright
Technically, the OP didn’t explicitly ask for a solution, but I think it’s safe to assume that, on forums like this, questions of the form “can <product> do this?” imply an “if so, how?” element.
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@mathlete2 said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
since you yourself have shown a willingness to post batch-based solutions on this forum.
The problem with your citing twice, this particular example, @mathlete2 , is that it was the appropriate response because it was a non-Notepad++ specific solution to affect Notepad++ itself. There currently is no other tool or option, that could have resolved the problem the OP presented to fix the problem upon launch of an NPP instance.
That’s not the case with this OP problem. There was already a solution, presented by @PeterJones . He was given the answer and a link to investigate. Again, teach them to fish and they can eat for life. Spoon feed them, and you’ve got to feed them everytime they’re hungry.@mathlete2 said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
Technically, the OP didn’t explicitly ask for a solution, but I think it’s safe to assume that, on forums like this, questions of the form “can <product> do this?” imply an “if so, how?” element.
There goes that
assumptionword again. And again, he was given an answer and a link to investigate. We need to see if he actually needed more help if he came back with an “if so, how?” response. He didn’t. He still hasn’t. Perhaps, because he followed that link and figured out how to do what he wanted. When we help, help them, help themselves. Less is more. :-) -
@Lycan-Thrope said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
it was a non-Notepad++ specific solution to affect Notepad++ itself.
This is misleading: the solution demonstrated how to remove lines from a plain text file; the files in question simply happened to be NP++ files. Would it have been that much better if I had geared my solution to NP++ configuration files, and told the OP to figure out how to adapt the methodology to his own files? That seems unnecessary…
There currently is no other tool or option, that could have resolved the problem the OP presented to fix the problem upon launch of an NPP instance
That is incorrect: I had already explained what needed to be done manually in that thread, and those steps were not particularly tedious to do manually. Alan merely gave instructions on how to script the process.
@Lycan-Thrope said in [FORK] Tangential Discussion about what advice is "on topic":
There was already a solution, presented by @PeterJones . He was given the answer and a link to investigate.
As I’ve said multiple times, neither of the two responses presented actual solutions. To use your fishing analogy: the responses did not teach the OP how to fish, they directed the OP to a fishing supply shop without indicating which specific supplies needed to be picked up for this particular fishing trip (or at least where to find them within the store). I, on the other hand, gave him an actual rod (code for a batch script), and told him how to apply the bait and tackle that he already had (template and name list) so that casting the line (running the script) would allow him to catch his fish (obtain the files for each name on his list).
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At this point, we’ve all had our say, and there are people who are never going to agree with each other on some of the issues raised. I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by continued bickering. (I’m not going to enforce a stop – ie, lock the topic – but I will highly encourage people to just move on.)
If Don comes in and posts more guidance, great. If not, Guy, myself, and the other moderators will continue to do our best to keep the discussion focused on Notepad++ while trying to not be authoritarian.
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@PeterJones
This thread reminds me of my old days at Dell when some newbie would reply all to a company-wide email with “please take me off this list” which would quickly be followed by 50 to 100 others! Mildly entertaining but not very productive.<mild_rant>
I don’t understand why people get their knickers in a wad over whether some post is or is not sufficiently NPP-related. Sure, moderators need to check for spam, but regular users should stop pointing fingers and get about their business.
</mild_rant> -
My demands here are much lower - I welcome anyone who can give me a good advice, even in an unexpected way. After all “beggars can’t be choosers” ;-)
